Saturday, July 7, 2007

BBC: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

As I said the other day—just sort of a reminder—uh-hmm...

What do I have to do to make you heathens participate besides beating the crap outtaya? I may be tiny but I can kick and chop-chop like the best of karate kicker choppers out there! AYE! If my uber moves won’t scare you, our discussion is on 07/07/07. That means it’s cosmic bad karma for those who won’t join us! Just ask Professor Trelawney and she’ll tell you!!!

*Big grin* :P

Now, here are the questions for us to discuss (*cough* cosmic bad karma *cough*):
  • Harry and his godfather, Sirius Black, share a very close relationship. What are their similarities and differences, and how do those factors affect their friendship?
  • Should Harry have resisted the temptation to invade Snape’s privacy by reading his thoughts in the pensieve? Was it proper for Snape to stop teaching Occlumency to Harry after Harry read his thoughts in the pensieve?
  • There are a lot of lying, secrecy and trickery in the book. I.e. Ron and Hermione not telling Harry everything they knew while Harry was at the Dursleys; Hermione lying to Umbridge to lure her into the forest; Harry lying to Umbridge about knowing where Sirius was; Kreacher lying to Harry about whether Sirius was at the headquarters; Dumbledore not telling Harry about the prophecy, why he’s ignoring him and why it’s important he learn Occlumency; Voldemort not telling his followers that he’s a not a pure blood wizard. Are they justified?
  • In the wizarding world, there is prejudice towards mudbloods, half-breeds and non-humans. What’s wrong with this attitude? Have you ever been treated unfairly, unkindly or disrespectfully by others? Have you ever joined in with others to treat someone in an unfair/disrespectful way?

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51 comment(s):

Blogger Isabella said...

1. Harry and Sirius's most obvious connection is James. But they are very similar in many ways. Harry is very loyal and he will do anything for Ron and Hermione, just as Sirius had done for James. Harry is frustrated with the Dursleys. He's forced to stay with them and stealthy listen for news regarding Voldemort. Sirius has to remain in Grimmauld Place even when he wants to help with the Order.

One of the major differences between Sirius and Harry is seen in the pensieve. Harry would never do what Sirius (and James) did to Snape.

2. I think it was wrong for Harry to look into Snape's memory. I don't blame Snape for getting angry. I would feel the same if someone intrude into my privacy in such a manner, especially something that will embarrass me highly. I don't think Snape should have stopped teaching Harry Occlumency. He knew how important it was for Harry to learn to block his thoughts from Voldemort.

3. I dare say some of them are very justified. Sometimes people have to lie to keep someone from getting hurt. But it does bring out the question of whether it's preferable to have a lie than know the truth.

4. In GOF, we see Hermione pursuing SPEW. A good cause but a pointless one. But Hermione's heart is on the right place. No one should be discriminated upon because of their race, skin color, beliefs.

7/07/2007 06:15:00 PM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

-I agree with Isabella. Harry and Sirius are both feircely loyal. They would do anything for eachother. I think what affects their relationship is the fact that they only have eachother. When Sirius was young James was his only family. And when James died he was left with no one. Harry has no other family either. They relied on each other to be their for the other. If that makes any sense..

-I'm not too sure about this one. No one deserves to have their privacy invaded so Snape was jusitified in getting angry. But he had no right to stop the Occlumency lessons. This was a crucial thing that could have saved a life *sob*. Harry needed to know though so I think the end kind of justified the means.

-I think they are justified. Every one of the lies told where said for a specific reason. Some were not helpful but others were needed. I wish some hadnt lied i.e Kreacher (bastard). But then when Ron and Hermione didnt tell Harry about everything that was because they were told by Dumbledore to keep things quiet. Voldemort not telling hi followers he's not a pure blood was crucial. Most of the Death Eaters pride themselves in being pure bloods. But maybe thats irrelevent because of the sheer power of Voldemort...

-The prejudice agains muggle-borns and half-breeds is totally stupid. But its just like racism and sexism. Most people know that its unfounded and illogical but then there are a select few who are firm in their beliefs of prejudices and stereotypes. Tolerance and acceptance of difference would be great.

7/07/2007 08:47:00 PM  

Blogger Jordis Juice said...

- I agree with Gabrielle and Isabella. Sirius "banishment" is painful for him because he's the type of person who would rather help than sit around. Plus all the bad memories he had with Grimauld Place. I think I would have gone crazy if I were in Sirius shoes, trap in that house when all I want is to get out.

- I think Occlumency was one of those things that qualify under the Snape hates Harry but doesn't want him dead (I'm in the Snape is good camp :p) Until that first lesson, I don't think Snape realized how intense the bond between Harry and Voldemort was. And as Sirius guessed he wanted permission to maltreat James' son on a one to one basis. I don't think Snape admitted to himself how truly horrid Harry's life was as a result of Snape running back to Voldemort with the prophesy - from James and Lily dying to Cedric dying. I also think Snape has heard and obeyed a line very close to "Kill the Spare" before and thus his over the top reaction.

- I'm with Gabrielle, if only Kreacher hadn't lied. Many of these lies I think justified the means but from my experience, lying, secrecy and trickery usually bring out horrible results. Dumbledore might have a valid reason to keep Harry in the dark (if he's really training Harry) but horrible things could have been prevented if he had told Harry. Like Harry would not have resisted Occlumency lessons with Snape.

7/08/2007 03:15:00 AM  

Blogger Jordis Juice said...

Does anyone still mourn Sirius' death? Rereading this book made me wish more than ever that he's alive. :(

7/08/2007 03:16:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

Jordis Juice, I mourn for Sirius every day! I love him (especially in the Pensieve. He was hot ;) ). I only hope he comes back in the seventh book. His death was so inconclusive! There has to be more to it..

7/08/2007 03:28:00 AM  

Blogger Jordis Juice said...

Gabrielle, I'm with you on that! You know what, it's going to be hard seeing it all on the big screen.

I do believe we're going to see Sirius again in book 7 but I'm afraid it's going to be bittersweet. I have this feeling that Harry will get caught in a place between life and afterlife and that's where he will meet Sirius again, which is not exactly what I want for Sirius.:(

7/08/2007 03:51:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

I kinda dont want to see Snapes Worst Memory on big screen. Only because I've built it up so much in my mind that I dont think any representation can come close to it. Im seeing it on Wednesday so I dont have to wait too long.

I know what you mean with the bittersweet thing. Its not going to be happy (shame).
I want to read number 7 but then Im scared. 12 days....

7/08/2007 03:55:00 AM  

Blogger Jordis Juice said...

I want to see Snape's Worst Memory on big screen! LOL. It's one of the scenes I'm looking forward to seeing. It's one of my favorite parts in the book, not because of Sirius and James' bullying but I get to see the young Sirius, Lupin, James and Peter. If I were in Harry's shoes, I would be ecstatic. That's some experience all right, especially for Harry who grew up without his dad... and probably why he's confused and hurt when he saw the way Sirius and James treated Snape. All that elation and wonderful rush and then, shock and somehow disappointment.

7/08/2007 04:03:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

Sirius and Harry have this kinship not just because of James but because they have the same frustrations in life. We learned that when Sirius was around Harry's age, he left his parents house because they're against muggle-born wizards and all that loftiness associated when one feels so highly of himself. The same thing Harry experiences with the Dursleys.

I agree with Jordis how unpleasant it must be for Sirius to be stuck in Grimmauld Place when he hates that place. That's another similar thing between Harry and Sirius, restrictions. They are both restricted by circumstances and therefore can't do what they want to do. Sirius is desperate to help the Order of the Phoenix but because he's banished, he has to stay in his mother's house. Harry has to stay with the Dursleys because Dumbledore says so LOL.

I think the major difference between Sirius and Harry is that Sirius often gets into trouble because of the things he does, while Harry gets into trouble because trouble finds him.

Now, i understand Snape's anger but i don't think he should have stopped giving Harry lessons. But you have to ask if its wise to continue with their lessons when both Harry and Snape are unable to overcome their loathing of one another to actually be productive.

HP5 has too many lies, tricks and secrets. That's why Sirius died. *sniff* I hate Kreacher! *GGRRR* I don't care what Dumbledore says, Kreacher is a worthless, foul little bastard and i wish someone will curse him to perdition!

But Harry's at fault too. :S If only he used that mirror Sirius gave him...

PS: My verification is luppindh. :D

7/08/2007 04:48:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

Did you notice that Harry is always mad and irritated in this book? I understand his frustrations but he always takes out his anger on Hermione and Ron, which is unfair really. Also, Sirius always reminds Harry that Harry is not a risk-taker, unlike James who thrived on risk. Perhaps why Harry has peeked into Snape's pensieve even though he knew it's totally wrong. What about Harry risking getting caught by using Umbridge's fireplace, which is just impulsive bordering into crazy if you ask me. Sirius could get caught, Harry would be expelled, and all that complications when it's just about something James had done years ago. And what about Harry bringing his friends to the Ministry to save Sirius!

7/08/2007 05:00:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

Harlot, so many people I have spoken to said to me they didnt like Harry in this book becuase of his madness and constant irritation. But Harry is a teenager who has gone through so much. I think he's entitled to be upset. Okay maybe he shouldnt have taken it out on Ron and Hermione but I think we just have to be understanding. I dont really want to feel sorry for Harry but I kinda do because everything always go wrong for him! I just want him to get a break!
But I dont think that will happen for a while...

I agree about the risk taking bit. Harry may not be as completely DARING as James but hes still done a lot of things he shouldnt have.

7/08/2007 05:10:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

Gabrielle, i know what you mean. :( And i don't blame Harry for trying to save Sirius but what he did, bringing fellow students to the Ministry when he knew for a fact that they'd be facing Death Eaters is just a bad BAD call.

It all comes back to Harry learning Occlumency. It's tricky, everyone seems to be at fault why things have happened the way they did and yet you can't blame them. If only Harry truly tried to learn to close his mind... If only Dumbledore taught Harry instead of appointing it to Snape... If only Snape didn't let his bitterness overcome him...

The only two people in Hogwarts who could teach Harry Occlumency is Snape and Dumbledore. Dumbledore should have taught Harry but every time Harry's with Dumbledore, Voldemort rose to the surface and he might use that opportunity to try to possess Harry.

In a way, Snape was perfect to teach Harry Occlumency. Nobody can get Harry as angry as Snape so if he could overcome his emotions with him, then blocking Voldemort would be easy.

7/08/2007 05:43:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

I get sooo frustrated with Harry when he doesnt put his mind to it. It was so dissapointing when he didnt take it seriously. If only he actually did what Snape told him to.
I agree with you Harlot when you say that Snape was the best to teach Harry Occlumency for the whole anger thing. But I wanted Dumbledore to do it. Just so that Harry would pay attention.
I hate Voldemort :(

Almost as much as I hate Bellatrix *frown*

7/08/2007 05:57:00 AM  

Blogger Jordis Juice said...

I think that Occlumency lessons where something that could and should have been very helpful to Harry. While Snape is a much better choice as a teacher of this particular skill than Dumbledore, the lessons do not go well. Had the continued, Harry could have possibly finally gained the strength he needed to block Snape and then Voldemort from entering his thoughts.

I think Dumbledore made a good judgment call when he requested that Harry take Occlumency lessons from Snape. It was a choice that had to be made and both agreed. Maybe it would have been better if someone else was present, but that may have drawn suspicions from others (like Malfoy). And as good of an idea as these lessons were, they were not actually working very well and I think it probably was best that they ended.

7/08/2007 06:02:00 AM  

Blogger Jordis Juice said...

Gabrielle, I hate Bellatrix too!

I forgot to say, I think it all comes down to Snape's Worst Memory. Harry shouldn't have looked into the pensieve...

7/08/2007 06:04:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

I hate Bellatrix for killing Sirius but that's it. The person i truly hate is Umbridge. OMG i swear, she's a foul nasty witch! If there's someone who deserves to be boiled in undiluted bubotuber pus, it's her! That evil evil EVIL ugly little toad!!! *arrrggh*

7/08/2007 06:11:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

I think Harry's lack of dedication to Occlumency is worse than looking in the Pensieve.
When Harry looked in the Pensieve the damage that happened there was mainly personal. It was idiotic of him to contact Sirius but not life threatening. Or so i recall (cant rememeber too well *blushes*)
When he didnt do Occlumency Voldemort was able to send false images to Harry and because of that his hero instincts started to act up and he went to save Sirius.
Voldemort would not have had that control if Harry did Occlumency. Dammit its so sad! Sirius needs to come back!

7/08/2007 06:12:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

Umbridge should be hurt! Badly! Worse then the centaur thing!

7/08/2007 06:13:00 AM  

Blogger Jordis Juice said...

But did Snape stop their lessons because he was bitter and angry that Harry saw his worst memory or it's because he didn't want Voldemort to see what he's really up to. I mean Voldemort can see through Harry...

I agree, Umbridge should be taken down! That woman is a very nasty piece of work! Her detention still makes me cringe no matter how many times I read about it.

7/08/2007 06:20:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

I was under the impression that Snapes hatred for James and Harry got too much for him and when Harry looked at the embarrasing memory he snapped. I didnt even think about Voldemort...Hmm...
Thats exactly what the lessons were aiming to stop. If Harry had done them properly then it never wouldve been an issue.
Snape was stupid for stopping the lessons anyway.

7/08/2007 06:23:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

I think Harry's lack of dedication to Occlumency is worse than looking in the Pensieve.

I agree. I don't think that there's a time Snape's been worried about Voldy "seeing" Snape helping Harry with Occlumency. As manipulative as Snape is, surely he had already discussed it with Voldy and probably put his own spin on the circumstances. (Oh, i do like Snape LOL.) Also, if Voldy reads Harry's emotion, he'll know how much Harry loathes Snape and that only make things better for Snape and his disguise--because i believe in my heart he is good *sniff* and Dumbledore's true spy and ally.

7/08/2007 06:31:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

Are you sure Harlot?
Snape freaks me out because of his double agent thing..

7/08/2007 06:35:00 AM  

Blogger Jordis Juice said...

Ok ok... I guess what really mattered in the end was Harry not closing his mind, that's why Voldemort was able to hurt him.

Harry didn't want to learn and Snape didn't want to teach. It was doomed from the start.

7/08/2007 06:40:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

Jordis, true. LOL

Gabrielle, i've always been in the camp that Snape was in love with Lily LOL and his unwitting part of her murder jolted him back to his senses. So yep, i do believe he's working for the good side.

But now, after HP6, i have to believe Snape is good. I don't think i can accept that (sorry HP6 SPOILERS HP6 SPOILERS!!!)--


.
.
.
.
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Dumbledore's death has been a waste, that DD was duped by Snape. It just cannot be! Not only that, there are many things that ONLY Snape can answer for Harry. He's the only one who knows EVERYTHING, things from Voldemort and all that secrets with DD. So you see, i HAVE to believe Snape is good.. :S

7/08/2007 06:51:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

Ok I know what youre saying and I really want to talk about it but I want to save something for the enxt discussion :( It hurts but Im going to refrain :)
Is it from this OoTP that the theory of Snapes for Lily was established?

7/08/2007 06:56:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

Gabrielle, you're right. Must. Stop. Self. Discussing. Half. Blood. :P

Yep, i believe the "Snape was in love with Lily" theory it was established after book 5. In HP4, we were shown a real proof that indeed, Snape was used to be a Death Eater (in the hospital wing where he shows the mark on his arm). In HP5, after that pensieve, i suppose many people just got all those ideas about Lily and Snape and James. Snape hated James but you have to wonder, if it's all because of James' abilities in Quidditch (Lupin's explanation). There's too much deep loathing in there... Why, what's your idea about Snape? Or we should all wait for book 6 discussion? :P

7/08/2007 07:25:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

Ok I cant wait! Im going to warn though so
SPOILERS SPOILERS










Alright Im not too sure about Snape bacuase of a few things. One the Unbreakable Vow. How was Snape to know what he would have to promise? He went into it a tad blind so it could have been dangerous for the good side.
Then throughout the whole of book 6 a common theme was Dumblodores mistakes. Dumbledore said he rarely made mistakes BUT when he did make mistakes they were big ones. Could this refer to Snape? I dont know. Im just not ready to trust him. He just doesnt seem like the greatest person in the world..
What he said to Hermione after Draco cursed her; "I see no difference."
That was bastardly. And their are other things. Im not saying hes bad but I dont want to believe that hes good (especuially after he was so mean to Sirius.)...(I know Sirius wasnt that nice either but still...)

7/08/2007 07:33:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

Gabrielle, we should have a Snape debate! I could talk forever about Snape and Lily and why i think it fits that he was in love with her LOL. Slughorn has always mentioned Lily was this Potions genius. That's one reason for Snape to like Lily. In the pensieve, Harry sees Snape calls Lily a mudblood. It's possible that this is Snape's worst memory not because of the fight but because he said that to Lily. Unrequited love is painful, man.


I found this really good piece about Snape: The Potions Master

And then, there's this "Snape: Friend or Foe" panel that took place in the Phoenix Rising conference. Click here for the videos. ;)

7/08/2007 08:13:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

Yes please! A Snape debate would be awesome :D

Thanks for the links! I started reading the Potions Master and its really good. But I have to go soon so Im going to put more effort into it tomorrow.
When was the Phoenix Rising Conference? I have never heard of it. I feel so sheltered in this part of the world *sighs wistfully*

7/08/2007 08:23:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

Gabrielle, that Phoenix Rising Conference was sponsored by Borders (i believe it happened last month) and i'm happy to share every little Snape theory i know/could gather. :D And i know what you mean about that Red Hen writings. Really like that one. Anyway, let's see about having a Snape debate. ;)

7/08/2007 08:29:00 AM  

Blogger Lily Moon said...

Re: Sirius and Harry

The two of them have a deep connection and they rely on each other. Harry has the Dursleys, scratch that, he has the Weasleys, and Sirius has Lupin but if you think about it, Sirius and Harry are each other's family.


Re: Occlumency

I don't think it would matter even if Harry and Snape continue their lessons. Harry didn't bother to practice or try hard at all. But then again, when does Snape ever really tell Harry how to do it? When it comes to Harry, Snape is not a good teacher, be it potions, dada or occlumency. It could be that Harry just needs to be taught by someone less biased.


Re: Petunia Dursley

I've always thought that Petunia knows more than she has ever let on. Her knowing about dementors and that howler were big surprises.

I think there was a time when Petunia and Lily were close and then Lily died before they could work out whatever problems there were. Petunia has never been allowed to deal with her grief of losing a sister. Even if she did despise her that is still a loss and Harry is reminding her of it every day.


Re: Dolores Umbridge

I agree, she is foul, nasty and evil!!! First, sending the dementors after Harry, then her teaching methods and morbid detentions, and then the High Inquisitor, and then attacking Professor McGonagall! She certainly behaves like a Death Eater and I won't be surprised if she ends up as one.


Re: Tonks

I just love Tonks. She is one of my favorite characters in the series. She is funny and I love her pink hair! She is talented and tough (she's an Auror, isn't she?). I think it's great how she's not perfect.

7/08/2007 02:02:00 PM  

Blogger Petra said...

I think Sirius' death is more painful for Harry than the death of his parents because unlike his parents, Harry actually knew Sirius. Not only is he filled with grief but also guilt over his impulsive behavior and all his mistakes that led to Sirius death and almost cost his friends their lives.

I think Harry fails to realize that although he did some rash judgments, Sirius' reckless behaviour helped bring about his own death. Still, why did Harry delay opening the package Sirius gave him anyway? It's all very frustrating and sad. :( I really wish there is more to Sirius' death than just him falling through some mysterious veil!

While we're on the subject, if there is one thing in the Potter world that REALLY puzzles me, it's that damn veil! What's up with all the voices and how could anyone who falls through it just disappear into oblivion? And it's all very convenient for JKR too because it's in the Department of Mysteries. What the hell? Seriously. What the hell?

7/08/2007 03:58:00 PM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

Petra, I agree. The veil is freaky and I want to know what its about! Why can Harry hear voices but Hermione can't? It is very very frustrating! Its like the threstrals but worse! At least we got an explaination for those, the veil is still a mystery..

7/09/2007 02:23:00 AM  

Blogger Lily Moon said...

Petra, Gabrielle, I agree! It is scary and freaky!

OOTP: "the archway was hung with a tattered black curtain or veil which, despite the complete stillness of the cold surrounding air, was fluttering very slightly as though it had just been touched"

I think, as many before me have theorized, the veil is a doorway. But where to?

OOTP: "There were faint whispering, murmuring noises coming from the other side of the veil..."

I doubt Harry has only imagined those voices. Luna heard them too.

I am confused as to what the veil looks like. I know a veil is just a fabric and it's hanging. If you enter the Department of Mysteries, will you be able to see both sides of the veil? Or is the veil covering a passage way through a wall?

7/09/2007 03:10:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

If you enter the Department of Mysteries, will you be able to see both sides of the veil? Or is the veil covering a passage way through a wall?

Lily, i think there is no wall surrounding that veil. I have to check, will be back LOL.

7/09/2007 03:55:00 AM  

Blogger Lily Moon said...

Harlot, I found it. *slaps forehead*

OOTP: "there was a raised stone dais in the center of the lowered floor, and upon this dais stood a stone archway that looked so ancient, cracked, and crumbling that Harry was amazed the thing was still standing. Unsupported by any surrounding wall, the archway was hung with a tattered black curtain or veil which, despite the complete stillness of the cold surrounding air, was fluttering very slightly as though it had just been touched."

I stand corrected. The veil is like a magical portal because you can see both sides. It was just confusing because when Sirius fell, no one even looked for his body. It just disappeared.

7/09/2007 04:06:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

Lily, yes! No one even looked for the body. How did Lupin know Sirius had died?

I'm with Petra on this one. If there's one thing i want to know the answer about, it's regarding that damn veil.

Luna can also hear the voices when the others can't. She can also see the thestrals. There must be some connection in there.

I know JKR said that Sirius is truly dead :( but i can't help it. As long as that veil exist, i have to hope that there is some way for him to "return".

7/09/2007 05:09:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

Harlot! Sirius is really dead!? I never heard that JKR confirmed that! I only know that she said Dumbledore is not going to 'pull a Gandalf'.

Oh this is sad! I really hoped that he wasnt really dead.

Why didnt they look for the veil? It was kind of abrupt how Lupin automatically pulled Harry away from the veil and said that Sirius was dead. Other people must know what the veil is about then.

7/09/2007 05:47:00 AM  

Blogger Lily Moon said...

Harlot, Jo confirmed that Sirius is dead?!?? I know she said that about Dumbledore but not about Sirius... I quote everything Gabrielle said.

7/09/2007 06:00:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

I'm afraid so, ladies. :(

This is what JKR said about writing the death in HP5:

"Yeah. Well I had re-written the death, re-written it and that was it. It was definitive. And the person was definitely dead. And I walked into the kitchen crying and Neil said to me, 'What on earth is wrong?' and I said, 'Well, I've just killed the person.' Neil doesn't know who the person is. But I said, 'I've just killed the person.' And he said, 'Well, don't do it then.' I thought, 'a doctor' you know, and I said 'Well it just doesn't work like that. You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer.'"

Evil ruthless witch, i tell ya! EVIIIILLLLL!!!! *sob*

7/09/2007 06:01:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

Wait. but she said this BEFORE publication. I remember this one. So she couldve changed it. Just like she changed the last word of the senventh book from scar to something else.

There could still be hope!
(Or is this wishful thinkiing?) :D

7/09/2007 06:04:00 AM  

Blogger Lily Moon said...

That's ruthless. :( OK let's say Sirius is really dead but there should be a way for him to get back, maybe through that veil? I remember Jo said even in the magical world, when a person is dead, he's dead. But....I mean, you never know what Jo is up to.

7/09/2007 06:14:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

Okay, here are my stuff about Sirius' death. Bit long. :P

Another quote from Jo about the death in OOTP:

"I think what I was trying to do with the death in this book [OotP] was show how very arbitrary and sudden death is. This is a death where you didn't have a big death bed scene. It happened almost accidentally and that is one of the very cruel things about death and they're now in a war situation where that really does happen, where one minute you're talking to your friend and the next minute he's gone. It's so shocking and so inexplicable... "Where did they go?" I found it upsetting to write, because I knew what it would mean to Harry."

Lupin said it:
"He can't come back Harry," said Lupin.

Dumbledore confirmed it:
"It is MY fault that Sirius died," said Dumbledore clearly.

And we all know Jo speaks through Dumbledore:
Does Dumbledore speak for you?
"OH yes, very much so. Dumbledore often speaks for me."

Dumbledore is all-knowing i think. And he should know about the veil, great wizard that he is. Plus, i don't think he would tell Harry that Sirius is dead if he believes that Sirius is alive.

Is there a chance for Sirius to come back?

JKR: "Magic cannot bring dead people back to life... Once you’re dead, you’re dead."

JKR: "Death is not reversible, even in the Wizarding World, though in Book 7 "you'll see just how close you can get to the dead."

But, it can't be just that! That veil hasn't even been explained yet! I agree with this person:

The main question is why wasn't there a body? Why didn't J.K. invent the Veil to work so that the person went in alive and came out again dead? It would have been more final, wouldn't it? And then there wouldn't be any question of whether he dead or not. Why has she left this issue open for fans to speculate? To give us something to do in the run up to the next book? I don't think so somehow. Of course it is possible that she's being cruel to Harry by leaving him without any sense of closure, but having that detail for that purpose is a bit pointless because Harry's going to suffer anough as it is without it. The immediacy and unexpectedness of Sirius's life would provide just as much of a shock for Harry. Why deny him, and us, the closure?

If it is passages from the book that point to it that you're looking for, then how about this one:

"... And, anyway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?" "Er... isn't it?" said Harry uncertainly. She shook her head in disbelief. "Oh, come on. You heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you?" "You mean..." "In that room with the archway. They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them."

I know it's 'Loony' Luna Lovegood, but I do think she's smarter than Hermione gives her credit for. What did she mean by this statement?

There is even mythological evidence to suggest Sirius might return. Accourding to Egyptian mythology, the star Sirius disappears into the underworld every year, and then returns to the sky again. I think the phrase 'shrouded in a veil of darkness' was even used somewhere in reference to this. And we all know how J.K. likes to get her ideas from mythology.

7/09/2007 06:37:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

Ok I'm happy with that :D

7/09/2007 06:43:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot said...

Gabrielle, me too. Me too LOL. This is the same as me having to believe that Snape is good. Sirius has to come back. He has to! Perhaps that mirror Sirius gave Harry will also play a part, because Harry never really used it. What's the point of it existing? Just to torture us? Hopefully not! *grrr*

7/09/2007 06:48:00 AM  

Anonymous Gabrielle said...

It has to. Otherwise its jsut redundant. And when has JK every put anything in the books that are redundant? So the mirror is coming back. But did Sirius have it on him when he died (carrying it around jsut in case Harry decided to contact him) or would it have been in the house?
There are too many things that need to be cleared up and if anything is left out I am going to scream!

Im still reserving judgement on Snape...

7/09/2007 06:54:00 AM  

Anonymous NotGryff said...

Sorry folks, but JKR has never to my knowledge said something blatantly false to set us up for surprise or confusion. When she says that Sirius is dead, he's dead. When she said that Dudley is just Dudley, she meant that there's nothing else special about Dudley. When she said Harry, Voldemort (so therefore quite logically) and Tom Riddle were NOT the Half-Blood Prince, she meant simply that. It wasn't "opposite day" or she didn't just decide to lie to all of us for the heck of it...

7/09/2007 07:21:00 AM  

Blogger Harlot and Trollop said...

Notgryff,

We're not saying JKR is lying. :P We're just saying there's a possibility that Sirius will be able to "return". He has to. Is it so bad to wish that?

7/09/2007 11:13:00 AM  

Blogger Danielle De Barbarac said...

Good discussion ladies! Keep them coming! I want to share a theory I read somewhere - I can't remember which site but it doesn't matter - the point is the connection of the veil and book 7.

Sirius' death in book 5 happens so suddenly, as if to divert us from what is really important. That room in the Department of Mystery where the veil is located is called the Death Room. What's more, the veil is hallow. It is possible that Deathly Hallows simply means The Veil.

7/09/2007 05:54:00 PM  

Blogger Danielle De Barbarac said...

Almost forgot, I agree that Umbridge should drown in bubotuber pus! She's a nasty piece of work!

7/09/2007 05:57:00 PM  

Blogger Lily Moon said...

Harlot, thanks for that Sirius rant. lol

Danielle, that's interesting. I have always thought "Deathly Hallows" refers to Godric Hallow.

7/10/2007 03:02:00 AM